From Lab to Real-World Advanced Manufacturing with Tim Andrews (MTC)

Read the Transcript

[General intro omitted.]

Chad Perry:

Today we’re hearing from Tim Andrews and his colleague, Magnus McFarlane, from the United Kingdom’s Manufacturing Technology Centre, also called the MTC for short. Now, Tim is the lead advisor and digital transformation for the MTC, and Magnus is the lead advisor in business transformation. So I’ve asked Tim and Magnus to come on the show today to help us better understand how small manufacturers should be thinking about and taking practical steps toward their so called Digital journey. So we’re going to look at a few different real world use cases that apply to complete beginners as well as advanced businesses that want to take their productivity even further. Tim and Magnus, gentlemen, thanks for joining us.

Tim Andrews:

Thank you.

Magnus McFarlane:

Thank you.

Chad Perry:

Now, I think it would be helpful to start off with some context around the MTC, what you’re all about, and then we can look at the process that you’re using to help small manufacturers stay competitive.

Tim Andrews:

The MTC, as you’ve kindly introduced, is research and technology organization. It’s one of the seven high value manufacturing catapults. And their role really is to accelerate adoption of advanced manufacturing technology into British manufacturing. The MTC specifically was founded in 2010, and it was founded with three universities Loughborough, Nottingham, Birmingham and the welding Institute. And the purpose the role of the MTC is to bridge the gap between academia and industry. This is often called valley of death, where ideas and technologies don’t get the development to take them through to an industrial level. We’ve grown significantly since 2010. We’ve now got over 800 staff. And we also have, within that, the advanced manufacturing training center so to bring on the engineers and technologists of the future, and the national center for additive manufacturing. We are a sort of collaborative organization. So we have a membership model. So we’ve got over 100 Industrial members that support and collaborate on research and development with the MTC.

Chad Perry:

Okay, so let me get this straight because I’m also thinking of other organizations, like Make UK, that seemed to be more on the policy side. And so you guys are very much focused on getting technology, useful technology, out of the lab and into the real world. So is that kind of what you’re describing?

Tim Andrews:

Yeah, very much. So we have a lot of industrial collaborative projects, where we work with member organizations and other industrial organizations to solve problems using advanced manufacturing technology.

Chad Perry:

And so there are obviously a lot more than just 100 institutions or organizations that need this kind of access to technology. So that the 100 members that you described, those are the core supporting members. And then as I understand it, your role is to help the broader manufacturing industry in the UK adopt this technology.

Tim Andrews:

Absolutely, we’re a service to British manufacturing. And we work with organizations of all size and you don’t have to be a member to work with the MTC. The members are really guiding some of that research and development for the future. We work with organizations all across the manufacturing space, all across the different sectors. So it’s very much an organization supporting British manufacturing.

Chad Perry:

And so that’s how you arrived at this idea of this kind of semi formalized digital journey that you’re trying to take manufacturers on. And so can you tell me a little bit more about what that looks like for you guys? Especially, as it relates to SMEs, there are a whole lot of small manufacturers out there who just don’t have the resources to really spend a lot of time or money on figuring out how to do this. So what does that process look for you guys?

Tim Andrews:

The term the fourth industrial revolution has been coined and is widely talked about and has been for a number of years, in turning manufacturing into a sort of more digital environment. We know from our day to day behaviors as consumers, that it’s touching every aspect of our lives. And I suppose the fourth industrial revolution is how does that impact manufacturing and industry generally, so the use of data and the speed at which you can adapt and change based on that data and information. How will that impact businesses going forward? So one aspect of the work that’s been done at the MTC is, is very much about how do we help businesses embrace that digitalization piece? And I look at it from a digital transformation piece. So it’s not just about the technology, it’s about how are the changes in technology impacting how businesses operate. So it’s as much about looking at the technology, the strategy for the business and understanding how digitalization might impact the business. And also about people and culture in the organization. What sort of skill sets do we need to have in place to embrace this digitalization? And the MTC uses a process really to help understand what’s happening in the business currently and how might it look like in the future? Where are the opportunities to do better work to better understand what digitalization means for those businesses?

Chad Perry:

So that makes a lot of sense why you would have a lead advisor and business transformation as well as a lead advisor and digital transformation. And this is very consistent with a lot of the conversations that I’m hearing out of the industry, where when you go to look at adopting digital tools, really the first place you have to look is to step back and see what is the strategy of the business? What is the whole purpose of doing this? And obviously you want to stay competitive but, as you mentioned before, when we talked previously, that is really all about how you run your business in your own unique way. And so that’s going to be different for everybody. So what does it look like when a small manufacturer comes to you and says, I need help?

Tim Andrews:

I mean, typically we would undertake what we call a line walk, which is usually a complimentary visit to site. Where we look at, a really top level look at, the way the business is operating from a manufacturing perspective, and then talking to the business leadership about the challenges that they’re facing, which have sort of met that they wanted to seek some outside support. And then we then try and identify where the best, where we could be support them on that journey. And it really could, it could be anything, it could be a preparation for robotics and automation. So there’s a bit of optimization work to identify what needs to change in the process in readiness for putting in place, automation or robotics. It could be redesigning a factory in anticipation, new equipment, or even optimizing a process, recognizing that at some point we’re going to try to implement new technology. So it’s a wide range of challenges, and our role really is to try and identify how we could best support them. And one of the advantages of the MTC is we’re not vendor specific, we’re vendor agnostic. So we take an unbiased view as to what’s best for that manufacturer and then we can then signpost with other organizations. We’re not here to compete with commercial businesses, we’re here to identify the best solution for that organization.

Chad Perry:

Right, and that can be a huge advantage to the business owner who has questions about what’s even possible, and doesn’t want that to obviously be biased by someone who’s trying to sell you a solution. So what would be some of the more general questions that you would start with? Because it sounds like the business owners are coming to you, really with technology in mind, and in my experience, that’s where a lot of people start. They have an idea. They either say, I have no idea where to start, or they’ve seen something specific that they want, but you end up finding out that there’s a lot more to it. So what are some of those questions that you ask?

Tim Andrews:

As we said earlier on, it very much depends on how we’ve been approached. So the example you gave there really was someone came to you with a technology challenge, because as the name suggests, the Manufacturing Technology Center, therefore, they’re looking for some help with technology. But it wouldn’t be uncommon for someone to say I want to input a robot, install the robot here and actually, when we’ve looked at the challenge, we’ve actually identified that maybe you didn’t need to do that, you could have done some things beforehand, which would give you the equivalent net gains that you were trying to achieve. So it’s very much about understanding the, I suppose, the metrics within the business that’s driving the voids. And then Magnus, whether you wanted to give us some input?

Magnus McFarlane:

Yeah, from a business transformation perspective, we’re definitely asking, what is your vision? What is your aspiration for your business more broadly? Before we start to look at the individual technologies that that might help. And then what’s the specific opportunity that you’ve identified? And what are the requirements? So what are you trying to achieve from, if they come to us with a specific interest. What you’re trying to achieve with that? So then, as Tim said, just looking broadly at the business, often there are improvements that we can make to the way that they’re operating that don’t cost a lot of money, are relatively easy to introduce, and actually start to make a bit of a change to the business culture. Which is perfect, which is what we’re looking for preparation for introducing technology later on. But as I said, often, there are changes that can be implemented that are 1970’s and 1960’s technologies in terms of control, but genuinely can have a massive impact on the performance of the business.

Chad Perry:

Right, and you may find out that that 1960’s and 1970’s technology is in fact appropriate for the business as much as I’m a fan of technology as I am. But it sounds like you’re taking a very foundational approach where really the first question is why. Why do you need a new robot? Why is it that you’re trying to implement this or that? Or why is it that you want to do whatever it is that you are starting with?

Magnus McFarlane:

We’re trying to learn from the lessons of the past and avoid creating islands of excellence, and instead produce solutions that actually meet the objectives of the business. We can, there’s plenty of technology costs are coming down, the number of technology providers is increasing. But it’s the result that the business owner managers looking for and that’s what we’re helping to support, first of all, and then we can introduce the technologies that are designed to the situation.

Chad Perry:

Right. And that’s actually a great point because even if you do install a robot, or whatever it is that you’re trying to do, if you don’t have that foundation in place where you can then say, okay, what’s next and look at it in terms of an ongoing self improvement process. Where you’re constantly trying to adopt and stay competitive and you have to have a framework you have to have a foundation. And really it has to be a culture and a mindset and a lot of the other things that you guys, I’m sure, helping manufacturing owners understand. It’s not just about a one off, I can install some technology and then suddenly I’m good for 10 years.

Magnus McFarlane:

100%. And that is one of the issues facing SME owner managers currently. As I said, there are a number of technology providers and if they’re first, if the owner managers’ first point of contact is to speak to one of the technology providers, there’s an incentive for that company to try and sell them the product that they have, which isn’t necessarily the solution that they need. So part of why the MTC exists, is as Tim was saying, to be agnostic to all of that and provide a focus that’s just for their business. We’ve grown from 11 employees to 800 to try and be able to provide all of the range of services necessary to help a business improve the way it operates, improve its productivity.

Chad Perry:

Piggybacking on that, in my experience, one of the ways you can really tell a good vendor from an okay or even a bad vendor, is that they will first take you through that strategic thinking, and they’re willing to identify if it’s not a good fit. Because ultimately, it’s not going to… I mean, if from a vendor’s perspective, if you want a long term relationship, that’s definitely not going to work. You have to have this, you want your customer to have this this mindset, but it sounds like you guys are very much in the role of taking that unbiased approach. I tend to think of business owners on a spectrum or really anybody in a leadership position, and they start at this place, they tend to start at this place where they’re thinking, I know I’ve got to do something about the technology. I know I need to adopt something. But they might be thinking, well, if I just get some robots or upgrade my line or whatever it is, then…

Magnus McFarlane:

A whole bunch of other headaches. I don’t know how to manage that. So that can be the case if you go full bore or just go straight into automation. But there’s a part that we play with the integrators and with the technology providers as well. So we’re trying to help them introduce their technologies more effectively into SMEs to benefit them as well. So it isn’t just about filtering out different technologies. It’s about supporting the whole industry, supporting the whole landscape to improve the way Britain performs.

Chad Perry:

Yeah. Can you add to that, Tim?

Tim Andrews:

As we said before, it was that sort of providing that unbiased advice. Fundamentally, I think that if somebody comes to us, it’s often because there is a confused landscape there. And they’re looking for somebody to help steer them a path, but with no bias. In fact, the only bias is to the customer, the SME manufacturer. And what we, I think, we’re there to do is help de risk that investment decision by confirming that the technology they’ve chosen to solve a particular problem is going to deliver the right solution for them, that’s going to meet their particular driver. Whether it be more throughput, whether it be improved quality. Whatever it is, the driver, and usually a combination of several of those is, and it’s bringing more confidence about that decision making, as I say, de risking it. So that you’re going into with your eyes open, as opposed to somebody told me I needed a robot there and I speak to three robot vendors, and all of those vendors will allow me to do what I want to do. Which one’s the best one for me? Which is the right solution? The robot is the right solution. That’s often the challenge in picking the right combination of technologies or the right technology at the point in time to solve the problem. It might be conveyor and a sorter is a better solution than a robot. So we can help you like provide some of that clarity, and also support that with data. So we tend to start with a, what we would call a discovery project, which is understanding the problem, and then identifying what the right technologies might be to solve that problem.

Chad Perry:

Yeah, and that’s the paradox of industry. 4.0, is that it’s all about using tools, and especially low cost digital tools, because that’s what’s enabling this is the cost is coming down. Using these tools to stay competitive, yet at the same time, there is this tsunami of options and information and possibilities. And you could build a business in 1000 different ways that would probably work and of course, a lot of other ways that wouldn’t work. So there’s gotta be some sort of guidance there. And so what I’m seeing is, small manufacturers are kind of on the spectrum that really turns into a journey once they figure out that they actually have to do this, adopt this, as an ongoing effort as an ongoing thought process. So I tend to think of small manufacturers who are just getting started and maybe they’re running on very obsolete technology or pencil on paper. And then somewhere and then a manufacturer who is somewhere along the way, who has made some changes, and is ready to really ramp it up. So what I’d like to hear about are maybe some real world examples of manufacturers, small manufacturers, that you’ve seen along that spectrum, and what has their transformation looked like.

Tim Andrews:

So we’ve got an example of a company locally, where I know, Magnus did some work, which was a CNC manufacturing business, working in the aerospace industry. They had some real challenges about delivery, delivering on timing levels. And it was very much understanding what data was in the business and how do you make better use of that data within the organization. And I think you’re at better place to talk a little bit about this because you were hands on in the project.

Magnus McFarlane:

Yeah. So as you said, it was a precision engineering company, CNC machining components for the aerospace industry. And doing really well. Started by, what was an, apprentice of Jaguar and grew the business to around 3 million pounds turnover. And delivering into aerospace, they’re very specific about that, very safety critical components. So that’s the major priority but so is delivery. And there’s a measure called OTIF, on time in full. And for them, at the stage that we joined them, that measure was at 60%, which is reasonably low for the industry. And we were charged with helping them improve that so that their customers were getting more of their goods on time. The data that we use to help that business improve as it’s shadowing. So shadowing seems to be a reasonably hot topic amongst SMEs trying to improve, certainly those trying to improve their delivery. And they had an ERP system that was perfectly capable of generating all the information that they needed. They just didn’t have the skills at the time to make use of that module within the system. So we supported them in that. And then once we were capable of creating the schedule for them, we made sure that we communicated that to everyone in the business that needed to know. The way that we did that was through visual. We’d have big screens, we put a big screens around the shop floor, and for every day, it would reach work center. What work was due on and whether it was running late, or whether it was on time? And a question that managers often can’t answer is are they on plan? If you ask any moment in time, are you on plan? The way that they will go about understanding that is different and the challenge, and that’s if they even have a plan in the first place. So in this example, CNC machinists… Put the screens up on the shop floor, got them capable of producing the schedule. And as basic as those two steps are, producing the schedule and getting screens on the shop floor to display them, that led to them moving from 60% on time in full up to 93% on time in full. And the effort required to do that was pretty minimal. I mean, it was just as you were saying earlier, Chad, higher level view of the whole business, and then focusing on the areas that can help. And what we do, as the MTC, is we supplement the skills gaps in the business so that the business managers can make an action, the right decisions. And that’s what we helped this particular company do on a very low budget, quickly, we made that turn around in four months. And with the use of very little technology, we’ve since gone on to then connect the machines directly to the ERP system and start to get some of the more sexy, interesting stuff around IOT and machine monitoring.

Chad Perry:

So is this a case where just the awareness, from top to bottom of what that production plan looked like, drove the improvement? Or were they not fully utilizing their production planning capabilities before? Because it sounds like it has nothing to do with the ability to physically produce and it was all data driven.

Magnus McFarlane:

It was all data driven. It was all data driven. SME scheduling gets quite complex, that often British SMEs certainly have a high mix of product, but low volume. And switching between those different products in sequence that they have to switch between is a relatively complex process. Computers do that scheduling piece very well, and there are a number of providers of schedulers and ERP systems that have that module in there. But there’s a little bit of learning required to be able to schedule effectively and use your data well.

Tim Andrews:

It’s an interesting point actually, because commonly when we do are asked to visit an SME manufacturer, the challenges around the existing systems, and the information that’s being used and how the system is configured, is usually a bit of a barrier in the first instance. So it’s probably less about giving me a new system or a new piece of technology, often than not, it’s about making better use of the existing system and the data that’s within it. And what we did with this manufacturer that Magnus described was, we made the data very real, we brought the time base of it into a much more current phase. So we weren’t looking at what happened yesterday, it was what’s happening now. There was no new system in investment there. It was, as you say, data driven. It was very much about bringing that data and making it available now. And actually, it had a change to the culture of the organization, because people’s behavior change because they had better visibility of what was happening in the organization, and what was expected. And as a consequence, it was easy for them to see where they were what needed to be done, and when they weren’t meeting that plan. So it was transformational in that and what’s subsequently happened is the organizations then moved on to how do we capture data from machines in a much more timely manner. And also, they’ve sparked their own digital initiatives. So really, really moved forward. As a consequence of that, they’ve been able to see a growth in their turnover of 25%. So for them, without any more investment in people, without any more investment in systems, they’ve got some real benefits that have allowed them to focus on further improvements in the organization going forwards. And those, we often have those perhaps not as a wonderful story as that. But we have lots of examples of organizations where we’ll go in, identify a particular challenge, do something in preparation, which hasn’t necessarily cost an awful lot of money, but as actually moving forward. And actually then lays the ground for the next stage in technology, which might be a manufacturing execution system or it may be some condition monitoring on a machine to run a sort of preventative maintenance process or even to invest in robotics. We often look for quick wins. Where can we make a difference, doing something within the organization? Sometimes just using the skills and knowledge of people here, but maybe using some digital tools as well. So I’m thinking things like layout work. What we saw happening in the organization was that as people recognized the they could see what was expected of them, they could see where they were against what they were planning, that actually it started to focus their activities more. And the importance of the data as well was recognized because we had a behavior in the organization where the last thing you did in the day was you updated all the jobs by scanning them into the system. But what that didn’t do was show you where you were during the day. And so it changed the mindset when people could recognize where they were behind. So people then realized the importance of recording the information at the point where it needs to be done. So you could then see a job finished at a certain point in time in the day, and the next job that came along. So everyone got behind it and, I think, what we’ve also seen there is that there’s been a number of new initiatives where they’ve recognized that there’s some information available, we can access it, and we can then implement small scale solution to better use data in the business. So it really was a catalyst for almost continual improvement but with a digital thing.

Chad Perry:

Do you find that that’s pretty representative, where you get these companies that once they kind of stick their toes in the water, their people start to really understand what that means for them. And it’s no longer a matter of fearing that you’re going to be replaced, but what can I do to make my job easier and better and allow me to focus better on what I’m better at. Whether it’s skilled machining or back office functionality or anything like that.

Tim Andrews:

Very much so. I mean, when we talk about digitalization, we’ve got to remember that the success of any digital program is all about people and their acceptance of that. As you’ve said, it’s not about replacement too often. There’s a fear that by introducing better systems, automation robot, you’re just there to take people out of the loop. And that’s not the case at all. What’s happening is that roles are changing. People are using data to make decisions, and different roles are emerging. I think the successes that we found, with organizations we work with, are where you’ve got some inspired people in the organization, who then become the digital champions, that then leads to looking at different ways of using information. I mean, there’s a company I know that over in Norfolk, and someone from the accounts team took an interest in automating accounts data and they became if you’d like the software automation expert in the business. And because of the time they’d freed up from doing the accounts activities, which were quite manual, systemized, by using an automation tool, they’ve actually been able to free up their time, that then allowed them to become to look at other projects in the business using software automation. And I think if you can identify champions in the organization, who are digitally savvy. And I don’t mean by that, that they’ve got degrees in data science, I mean, they’re the people who recognize there’s information that’s in the business that can be extracted. And using a few simple techniques, or relatively low cost software, can actually transform how using information and change the way you do things and they can be they can be catalysts in the organization. And I think the certainly the projects we’ve seen where you’ve managed to identify, and I call them digital champions, but it’s people who are inspired to get on and change things within your organization. That’s where you really get the successes. So it becomes a homegrown thing, rather than somebody coming in telling you how to do something.

Chad Perry:

Yeah, and it seems like that’s happening at every level of the organization, and you never really know where that person or those people are going to come from.

Tim Andrews:

It’s very much that. And I think, if you ask the business leadership, they can often point to people who think, well, they know a bit about this, and they know a bit about that. And often when you start to think about how you’re going to move forward. I mean, we don’t sit down and say, right, who in this business is going to be a digital champion? But I’m thinking now that that’s something we should be doing. We should be asking up front. If you take these projects on, who’s going to be your internal champion, because I think that’s really fundamental for success.

Magnus McFarlane:

But what tends to happen is that that person ends up gravitating towards you, as you’re doing the project, they tend to gravitate towards it and start demonstrating that they’ve got an interest there. And that’s the exciting bit, but they may pick it up and run with it. And then you feel great, that’s embedded that we’re starting to build this into this company now and it’s not reliant on us blood-sucking consultants! It’s reliant on the people that are within the business.

Chad Perry:

But I would say that any businesses looking at doing digital transformation, that sounds it’s a very grandiose title, but I think it’s understanding better use of information in the organization does need to let people know and engage people right, at the very beginning, as to what this digitalization piece means, what the journey looks like. Because, as you say it does tend to sort of create fear about, we’re just losing numbers here, it was just cutting numbers. And it’s very much not about that. It’s very much about improvement within the organization, and better use of information. Actually to create better jobs, better roles, more decision making, informed decision making, and creating new roles that haven’t existed before. So it’s an exciting time. And if people don’t feel threatened by it, they’re more likely to engage in it.

Magnus McFarlane:

I think what Tim said is absolutely right. When we’re delivering technology improvements into a company, we’re wanting to engage as many of the workforce as possible because we’re trying to help get them started on a journey that we’re going to help them start but they’re gonna pursue. We look for what’s going to help everyone around the business. So, as Tim said, some of the tasks that we ask people to do are laborious, repetitive, boring things that can make you not want to come into work. If we can automate, and we can often automate some of those processes, we get to use the people get to do things that are more interesting and more rewarding.

Chad Perry:

Yeah. Can you think of a specific example where that you would like to highlight about that? So I know we only have a couple more minutes before we have to wrap up. But what would be another really good example that you would want the world to know about regarding some of this?

Magnus McFarlane:

That’s a big question.

Chad Perry:

It’s okay.

Magnus McFarlane:

I’m gonna give, chop this up as you’d like if I don’t say this as well as I should. I apologize, but we’ll have a go. So there’s a company that we’re currently working with that makes transport hardware, hardware that fits onto vans and lorries. And that it’s a whole industry in and of itself that and I knew nothing about when I first got into working with this guy. But they used to manufacture a good deal of product then they discovered China and became more of a warehousing facility rather than manufacturing. They lost an awful, they put out an awful lot of the manufacturing work to China and reduced their workforce down to from 40 down to six over the course of 10 years. And that’s disappointing for me for British manufacturing. But they got in touch with the MTC and the Group Chairman there described a vision that he had for the business to be more dynamic, agile company that embrace new technologies and new ways of working. And to help support that they wanted to reassure to bring back 400,000 pounds worth of business from China to the UK. And I think that happens to be a good story if you’re in engineering work. They needed our help to construct their business case, design the solution that met the whole business needs, they needed the impartial advice and expertise that that we give. They needed a bit of hand holding, because they wanted to take a big journey, but they didn’t have the resources in house necessarily to make the transformation that they wanted to make. We built a team, from the MTC, there were 12 engineers on that. In total that’s about half a million pounds worth of engineering talent, and help them start that journey. So reorganize the shop floor, from where it was to a vision that created. To reorganize the shop floor, we use lots of toys, so we 3d modeled their plants. We used virtual reality so they could see where they had decided to put the machines and then suddenly decide, oh, that’s not such a good idea where we thought it should be. Once we put the headset on and wander around, that’s going to things were going to cause issues. So we Use the virtual reality to get them to see what the future could look like. And ultimately, when we made the changes, we got them right first time. We were looking at new technologies that they wanted to adopt. So CNC machining was new for them. So we helped them source and train up for and find an operator for CNC machining. We introduced automation to help them assemble products more easily. That was a whole business piece.

Chad Perry:

That sounds like a very pointed example that unfortunately, we’re not going to have time to get into any more. But a pointed example of how industry 4.0 this idea of bringing cost competitive technology into your business can allow you to reverse the decades long trend of outsourcing and of no longer being competitive. So I would ask that you leave our audience with two points. One is, if they want to hear more about what happened with this particular scenario or any other scenario and do the same in their business with the help of the MTC. What do they need to do to get in touch, and to start that journey? And then the second is what would the lesson learned, like the highest level? If you had to just leave somebody with a single statement that they need to be thinking about a manufacturing business owner, what would that be?

Tim Andrews:

In terms of how to work with the MTC or how to find out more about us, obviously, visiting the website as any good organization have, www.the-mtc.org. And there’s a wealth of information on there. There’s a range of case studies from Advanced Manufacturing Technology examples right the way through to small scale business transformation pieces, where we’ve looked at processes and made improvements. So we work for businesses of all sizes, all sectors. And using the site there, you can find out using our capability explorer, the areas in which the MTC can support. In terms of the high level piece really from, what I would say is digitalization is here, and it’s been here for some time and it will have an impact on any business. And it doesn’t really matter where you are in that process, you should explore how that’s likely to impact the business, and how that might change your strategy. And the MTC can help support in that way.

Chad Perry:

Well, guys, thank you so much, and really appreciate everything.

Tim Andrews:

No, thank you very much for the opportunity.

Magnus McFarlane:

Thanks, Chad.

Chad Perry:

Hey, guys, this is Chad again after the fact. And I just wanted to let our listeners know that unfortunately, this interview got cut short. But we are planning a part two, where we’re going to take a deeper dive into some of the real world examples that our guests are going to talk about. So stay tuned for that and thanks for listening.

[General outro omitted.]